Thursday, June 29, 2006

ARAB REACTIONS

"It's no coincidence that they kidnap him as the others sign the agreement."

kidnapped kid's ID card held up
One of the big advantages of blogs is that they are international and often in English, which is more or less the language of the world. Recently there was a palestinian kidnapping of Israelis right on the verge of an agreement between Israel and palestinians. At Rantings of a Sandmonkey, we can read the reactions of an Egyptian to various world events, and today he has up a series of bits from various sources about the Israeli response to the kidnappings.

He starts with an excellent Sun Tzu quote, and one of the other posts is this from a commenter at al`Arabiya news that reveals some Arab frustration with the palestinians:
"Can anyone tell me how the palestenians accept to live liek this ? what kind of a government that has no dignity, controled by Israel, no army, no police, no life, no future, and they still say it is a country and a government, SHU HAL MASKHARA, CLOSE THIS STUPID GOVERNMENT AND CARRY ON THE WEAPONS AND FIGHT, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT, FINISH THIS THEATER, LOT OF MONEY, LOT OF DEAD PEOPLE, BIG TRAGEDY, HOW MANY YEARS YOU WILL STILL BE LIKE THIS, LOOK WHAT HAPPENED IN LEBANON, THEY DEFEATED ISRAEL, BUT AT THE END MOST OF THE PALESTINEANS AR E KHAWANA, , KHAWANA, WE ARE SICK OF YOU AND YOUR NEWS, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING, ALWAYS CRYING FOR MORE HELP FROM OTHER ARAB COUNTRIES, LIKE A BABIES, YOU ARE PLAYING WITH THE FUTURE OF A WHOLE GENERATION, ITS BETTER FOR YOU TO DIE THAN LIVING LIKE THIS, WAKE UP WAKE UP.
THANKS ALARABIYA FOR POSTING."
Sandmonkey posts a text message discussion he had with a friend over the events and why they are occurring, they agree that the radical wing of Hamas led by Khaled Meshaal is responsible. There was another al`Arabiya commenter quoted:

"walla, what did hamas expect, they should stop acting like children, and then cry for the world to help them after they get themselves into trouble. The people in gaza have enough troubles than to be occupied again due to the stupid, irresponsible actions of hamas idiots."
The Sandmonkey ended with this sad thought:

Yeah, sooner or later this will be over, one way or another!

sigh....

And commenters responded:
Well, I can’t see enough from B’s talk to be sure about his views.

It’s clear that if the Palestinians had a leader like you or like Sadaat, then by now they’d not only have a country, but a flourishing, thriving one and their only battles with Israel would be in football and in soccer.

Speaking as an Israeli, even while rooting for the Israeli teams, I’d applaud the Palestinian teams when they win, cheering them for having come a long way.

As it stands, I think Olmert is less than useless and that Israel should have declared that by killing two soldiers and kidnapping a 3rd from Israeli territory, Hamas has carried out a hostile act of war (as opposed to simply letting other groups fire rockets into Israel and blow up civilians). Israel’s response should have been:

A: To declare a full scale war on Hamas. If Gaza wants war, then Gaza will look like a war-zone! (Of course, the war will also include Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Brigades, etc).

B: To give a deadline. If the soldier isn’t returned alive ’till then, the war will begin.

C: To declare the war will stop immediiately once the soldier is returned.

D: To explain that if the soldier is killed, the war will continue until there’s not enough left of Hamas to bomb. This will severely deteriorate Hamas’s (and others’) capacity to carry out further hostile actions, rocket firings, etc.

When the war begins, immediately begin bombing Hamas targets, from foot-soldiers to Hamas ministers.
I’m sure there are several Hamas officials who are in no mood to be next to die in military strikes and there’s a good chance they’ll act to free the soldier, citing “for the benefit of Palestinians” in order not to let it be too obvious they’re trying to save their own lives.

Either way, a future Palestinian Authority government will think ten times over before kidnapping anyone. Indeed, before participating in any hostile action.

No doubt, many (most, perhaps) of this blog’s readers will now either hate me or tell me that “this would only make Palestinians more extreme bla bla bla”. I could answer that, but my comment is already too long.
-by anonymous


Israel kept repeating that it is in a state of war to justify the extrajudicial killing and the murder of bystanders during this process. Now, in a state of war this soldier can not be called a kidnapped hostage he is a war prisoner. I believe that the only good thing that a government that cares for its citizens should do for a war prisoner is a prisoner swap not shelling the places where he might be kept! I think that the Palestinian in this particular case behave more rationally than Israelis do. There are 800 Palestinian detainees without charges, 300 women and 100 children below 16 in Israeli prisons. So the Palestinians captured an Israeli soldier to negotiate a prisoner swap. What is so infuriating in this?

SM, I do not think Israeli government worry that much about its people otherwise they would have done something effective, i.e. negotiate, to free the other prisoner who was executed yesterday. Olmert will exploit this case to show that he is a tough guy who can order the killing of tens of Palestinians to avenge the killing of an Israeli. The Israeli public would forget that the life of this human could have been saved by releasing some Palestinian women and children serving times without charges.
-by Amgad


Israel gave up on the peace process and opted to wall itself off from Palestine instead. Palestinians have yet to come to grips with that. They still think Israel gives a diddly squat whether they declare jihad or not. Fact is,Israel will sit securely behind its wall,while making periodic incursions to gather rockets and militants. Palestinians only hurt themselves with continued militancy. Until Palestinians get their minds right,there will be one economic hardship after another.
-by Perry

“SM, I do not think Israeli government worry that much about its people otherwise they would have done something effective, i.e. negotiate,”

LOL

“something effective” - “negogiate” with Palestinian Arabs. Can you point to a single example of where that method worked?

“to free the other prisoner who was executed yesterday.”

_Murdered_. I doubt the Hamas government wants responsibility for the death. An “execution” is when the government or other authority does it. But they will probably deny involvement.

“Olmert will exploit this case to show that he is a tough guy who can order the killing of tens of Palestinians to avenge the killing of an Israeli.”

Yeah, because Olmert gets rich by killing Arabs. Everybody knows that.

“Israel kept repeating that it is in a state of war to justify the extrajudicial killing and the murder of bystanders during this process. Now, in a state of war this soldier can not be called a kidnapped hostage he is a war prisoner.”

Which just goes to show how much negotiations with Palestinian Arabs are worth. There has been a truce. Kidnapping a soldier during a truce cannot easily be justified by claiming that there is a state of war (there is, but during a truce you are supposed to not act on that).

The same truce, btw, does not mean that Israel is not allowed to hunt down and shoot criminals; unless you want to claim that the Palestinian authority has been denying for years, namely that they and the terrorists are the same people!

You might also want to look up what “prisoner of war” means. The Palestinian authority would have to take responsibility for the act (rather than deny it) and the prisoner would have certain rights (including access to the red cross/star). He could then be exchanged for a Palestinian prisoner of war, IF the Arab side had ever fought the war according to the law (i.e. uniformed fighters that don’t specifically attack civilians).

As it is, the Palestinians are not granting him the rights of a prisoner of war, their government even denies involvement.

I wonder why you are using that as an argument when the Hamas government themselves deny it. That is a bit strange.
-by Andrew Brehm

“Olmert will exploit this case to show that he is a tough guy who can order the killing of tens of Palestinians to avenge the killing of an Israeli.”

“No deaths or injuries were reported in the Israeli actions.” (From the quoted AP report)

“Now, in a state of war this soldier can not be called a kidnapped hostage he is a war prisoner.”

Two points to look at here. The soldier was taken in a cross-border raid by the Hamas-affiliated PRC. That in itself is an act of war, initiated by Palestinians. Yes, the soldier is a POW, but not because the Israelis have moved into Gaza. Second, the now dead 18-year-old civilian (reportly killed shortly after he was taken on Sunday) was not a POW. Nor was he a collateral casualty, victim of a stray shot in a combat zone. He was snatched and murdered by Palestinian thugs. No, I am not calling all Palestinians “thugs.” But I am saying that the persons (can’t call them “men”) that did this are thugs, thugs and murderers.

The problem is, these thugs and murderers are apparently the duly elected Palestinian government.
-by Uchuck the Tuchuck


I had a conversation once with a Tunisian about how kidnappings and bombings are just savage and will not change anything. They always make it worse for the Arabs. He said,” Well yea, I agree, innocents should not be killed, but what do you want them to do? They don’t have the means to fight and that is the only thing they can do to revolt.” I said,” So do you consider 911 OK? He replied,” NO, but….” There is always a ‘but’ with us.
-by Leilouta

Viable points from both sides, I think.

One basic truth (imho) is that Palestine will not begin to move forward before they lay down their arms and get busy building up a viable democracy.

“But should we just let Israel oppress and mistreat us?” I hear you say… Yes. It worked for Ghandi, it’ll work for you. I’m not particularly pro-Israeli, but considering they don’t kill people from my part of the world and burn our flags and whatnot, they’re certainly higher on the list than their neighbours! However, if the palestinians stopped their foolishness and showed signs of moving forward, western sympathy would quickly turn their way should Israel persist with their heavyhanded treatment of them.

Only the west can help Palestine in it’s struggle for a normal existance, but untill they learn the old “don’t bite the hand that feeds you” this will not happen. Plain and simple.
-by Adam B


What can I say…I started writing several times and deleted it all.

The Hamas has made an own goal. Actions have consequences.
-by Fabian

Personally I believe the recent kidnappings will be traced to Syrian influence, trying to prevent peace because without the big evil of Israel oppressing palestinians, Arab dictators will have no enemy to point to to distract people from their abject poverty and misery.

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1 comment:

Anna Venger said...

I'm not sure how Israel is supposed to negotiate with people who just want them dead. Period. Hamas is their choice of leadership, after all. And now they are claiming that they have chemical/biological weapons.

I can understand why Israel would think, "Enough already."